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Monday, October 26, 2009

Letter to the Editor

This article does not necessaily reflect the opinions of the Delta News Web staff.

Letter to the Editor - Submitted by Candy Corty

Another change Grimes has brought with him from the lower 48 is the implementation of a new, less relaxed dress code. Relaying that such dress codes are common in the lower 48, Grimes has called that students will no longer be permitted to wear items such as holey jeans, distractive hair colors, piercings' other then in the ears and shirts below the crotch must be tucked in. these changes are said to help limit distractions caused by a persons appearance. Students will no longer be able to wear hats in the school building, pants should not sag or show underwear, and there are to be no long shirts which is said to be for safety reasons. (Excerpt taken from the Delta wind)

Why is it that whenever a new principal is hired from the lower 48, they bring with them all these ideas of making us, and our kids, better? As if we were desperately broken without them. I just read the article about the new High School principal, and I am furious. He speaks as if he is our children's "Savior" now that he is here.

I am not the only parent who feels this way. The article says only 2 parents have called to complain, I know there are more parents who simply feel it is useless to call because it does nothing.

You can call you can voice your views and it means nothing if it is not the same views he shares. Just because the lower 48 has something in their dress code does not mean it should be applied here. It is the most ridiculous reason in the world to do something just because that is how those people do it.

We teach our children this at home, don't we? Just because Jane Doe wears designer jeans does not mean you have to. Some of the rules in the article do make sense but these specific ones are common sense such as not wearing pants that show your underwear, which of course, is a good rule. The rest I have a tough time seeing as anything but control issues on his and the school's behalf. It is not the schools business if I allow my child to have a different hair color, which allows her to express herself. It is none of the school's business if I allow my child to get her belly button pierced.

I disagreed with the hat rule when I was on the rule policy committee, as well. I do not think kids wearing hats as part of there clothing is hurting anyone. It would make more sense to me to make it a rule that these hats have to be removed while in a classroom. Some girl's hats are part of an outfit. School seems to think these are acts of deception that could lead to who knows what. These rules have gotten progressively worse year after year. Why is it that bare shoulders are now taboo in school? Was there a fear of girls being molested by young men Were these girls naked shoulders so provocative the school was in fear for the male staff being to distracted to teach? Was there a fear of boys not concentrating because a bare shoulder is such a distraction to them? I agree with skirt length without leggings or jeans, but what are they afraid of if a girl wears a shorter skirt with jeans under it, or leggings (stretch pants)?

Long shirts are now a safety hazard? To who? For what reason? I wear long t-shirts sometimes does this make me a threat or put myself in danger? NO. Jeans with holes in them no longer allowed?

Come on, this is just an over empowered group of people finding ways to prove it to the student body and parents. We are supposed to be teaching tolerance to our kids and acceptance.

If my daughters hair colors are distractive, then what about a teacher with a bad hairpiece or a kid with crutches or a disabled kid in school? Are they not distractions? We want the kids to learn tolerance of these distractions but we telling them to change anything about themselves that may be distractive to a few people?

I have news for Mr. Grimes, I'm sure he already knows this, but not every school in the lower 48 has all these rules he finds "so helpful". Shirts below the crotch must be tucked in? I'm thinking this is one more way to enforce the no pants showing underwear rule which I can understand, but if a student proves he or she is in fact wearing pants that clearly cover their undergarments, then that shirt should be left alone.

The more you push these kids and us parents with ridiculous rules over clothing, the more they are going to rebel. I plan to fight for my children, and my right to freedom of expression.

This is a public school and if they want to keep adding more and more and more restrictions, then they should just have the guts to implement school uniforms already. However, if that were to happen, I would like to see staff uniform requirements as well. I think, and I know I am not the only one who feels this way. I also wish the school would spend more time and effort on counseling for bullies.

More time teaching the kids in school who are telling other students they are going to burn in hell for reading Harry Potter or for wearing a band t-shirt that what they're doing is very wrong.

For six years this issue has been brought to me by all of my kids and it has never been dealt with harshly enough. I say that because it is still happening every year. I am also not the only parent dealing with these issues. More time should be spent on many other issues in school that are far more serious. Clothing, hair, jewelry, and what is next? How much eyeliner my daughter can wear? Where do these pointless rules end?

How silly will they get before more of us say something. I suggest if you feel the way I do that you make it known to more people than just parents.

Please call or write the school principals. Visit the school and see for yourself. The Middle school has a P.D.A. rule right now that is riddled with faults. I call whenever another one comes up. Do you know your child can get a citation for hugging their friend goodbye?

My child was given a warning for skipping down the hall with her girlfriend arm-in-arm singing "Follow the Yellow Brick Road". Until the teacher told the girls to stop with the public display of affection, they thought what they were doing was innocent. My daughter came home thinking this teacher was calling her and her friend lesbians.

Sometimes common sense should show over a rule meant to keep teenagers from making out in school.

It really appears to me that teachers can act as they wish for the most part with little or no repercussions Making a complaint about teachers behavior appears to do little more then possibly get them a tap on the wrist. However if your child gets in trouble there are consequences. Mr. Grimes if fixing broken things in our school system is your goal then I ask that you look into these issues first before taking away my child's constitutional rights.

26 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with what was said in this letter. My daughter-in-law was told that my granddaughter cannot have colored hair. Why not? If the parents say it's ok who is the principal to say otherwise? She asked if the policy was in writing. The answer, "I meant to put it in the new handbook but forgot." Put in in writing before you try to enforce it. We don't have the same problems here that they do in the lower 48. But if this continues we will. Bullies are a definite problem. Address these issues before the dress code/appearance code is enforced. Does the principal think that by enforcing all the new rules the bullying will stop? I doubt it. It will either stay the same or get worse.

October 27, 2009 7:19 AM  
Anonymous Misty McLendon said...

I am in 100% AGREEMENT with you. What color my daughters hair is and the peircing she has is not his busniss. i will back you all the way and have thought the same things ever since me daughter came home telling me the High School Pricpals rediculous rules, and am waiting for my chance to tell him myself. i think callin gthe school is a good point. thank you for the letter and i hope Mr. Grimes reads this.....

Misty McLendon

October 27, 2009 3:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I remember when we were taught to take off hats while inside, and holey jeans? Yeah some parents either don't care or are to lazy to tell a child that some of the holes are to close to inappropriate, and as for saggy jeans? Not allowed in my house either or shirts that hang below the crotch or showing belly buttons, I want my kids to realize that there is appropriate and inappropriate, it takes a little work and effort, but I don't want my kids running around looking like wanna-be thugs, but thats just me, no crazy hair colors or piercings allowed either, my kids can learn to "express themselves" in a way that my grandmother would even be proud of, not left shaking thier heads and wondering "where did it all go wrong?" A huge part of the problem now days is the fact that most people are to lazy to properly parent, and so their kids run around like wanna-be thugs, talking some tough crap behind everyones back, or flat out disprespectful, because it's to hard to say "knock it off", lazy parenting is also another reason why theres so many fat kids around, it's to hard to cook, so buy a pizza pocket and pepsi for breakfast, but that's another discussion.

October 27, 2009 5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms. Corty:

Please proof your submission in the future. Your letter is full of grammatical errors to include inappropriate word usage, incorrect verb tense, and other errors. These errors limit a readers ability to give credence to your arguments because it appears disconnected and the logical flow that should be present is missing or lost in the translation.

You will also find that with a little research on your part that dress codes similar to the dress code at Delta High School are common place here and not just in the lower 48. In fact several school districts similar in size and location in the interior of Alaska have almost identical dress codes. You might take an opportunity to look at the Copper River School District Student Handbook 2009-2010. Mr. Grimes is not trying to be a "savior", but merely attempting to provide some sensible guidance that is commonplace in today's workplaces. You will not find many employers or potential employers of our young people very tolerant of today's fashions for young people. So if he is attempting to save anyone, he is attempting to save the potential for our sons and daughters to have a fighting chance in the real world. A real world where bills are a reality and a job is a must. So if Mr. Grimes is doing this maybe we should thank him and take a good long and hard look at ourselves as parents for not holding our children to the same high standards. Oh pity the child that is raised by a friend and not a parent.

October 27, 2009 5:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms. Corty, et al.:

I am sure that many of you are not aware that the issues or problems confronting are youth today are universal. If we turn a blind eye thinking that we don't have or possibly couldn't have the same issues as the lower 48 then we are a part of the problem and are the BIGGEST threat to the welfare of our young people.

The Fairbanks News-Miner reports daily on gang activity in our immediate area. "Gang Shootings- A Wake-Up Call for Fairbanks", an article published August 28, 2008, is an article that is a year old, but indicates that the issue is growing and the reach of gang influence is widespread. You may turn a blind eye or bury your head in the sand, but gang activity, underage drinking, and illicit drug use by young people is here in our community. You and others may want to ignore this reality because quite honestly to acknowledge it would only be an indictment of your ill fated attempt to parent. There are bigger battles to wage for the welfare and safety of our children and I am certain that one of them is not defending their "right" to have any hair color they choose. You are accomplishing nothing by defending something as meaningless and unimportant as your child's hair color. Come on WAKE UP, the problem is bigger than you are willing to admit and probably if the truth be told you may be counted among the many "friendly" parents that not only ignore the real issues, but even encourage the behaviors that many times are both illegal and damaging to you son and/or daughters. You do this in an attempt to validate your own self-worth by being their friend. It doesn't make you cool. Quite the opposite is true.

I remember back to something I learned many years ago and still sometimes recite quietly to myself when I need reminded about what is right and where my focus should be. I quietly remind myself of what is valuable and important by reciting in a whisper or in my mind the Scout Law (Boy Scouts of America):

A scout is:
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean,and
Reverent.

Teach your children these guiding principles and how to live within these guidelines and you will have done an admirable job.

October 28, 2009 11:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are bigger issues in Delta Junction than a principal that wants to implement rules.

Delta Junction has a real problem with drugs and alcohol and no after school activities for our youth.

I wish that the parents that are making such a big deal for rules that our kids will have to follow in the real world, would use their voices and letters to advocate for the real needs of the community.

Parents, advocate for the injustice that the teachers in our community are facing with their contracts, present your concerns when there is a board meeting but do not raise your voices when decisions are made for the community and the schools if you are not present in the meetings that are important.

The reality is that there is so much complaining going on but when it's time to be present where it matters the majority of the time we see the same people trying to do better for this town.

Finally, my father always said that if you disciple a child in their early years and you teach them values, respect, dignity, honesty and self worth. When the time comes your children will thank you. They won't see at the time but your job is to be a parent and not their friend.

October 28, 2009 1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I read this letter an old saying comes to mind..."Why let the world think you're a fool when you can open your mouth (or your laptop) and remove all doubt"! Are you serious?? Alaska is such a great state that if you don't like the public school system, you're more than welcome to educate your little doll yourself!! But then I imagine you are probably the type who puts more value on the school system as a public funded daycare rather than a place for your daughter to get an education....

October 28, 2009 1:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have read the letter submitted by Ms. Corty and after reading it several times I have yet to find any reference to academics or academic achievement. Where are your core values lady and what core values are you helping to develop in your daughter? Maybe you should focus more on assisting your child to develop as a person and less on such matters of consequence as whether, or not, she can have a "belly button ring". She has her whole adult life ahead of her to make those decisions!

October 28, 2009 4:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't blame Mrs. Corty for her speaking her mind.

If it weren't for you "Generation Jones" and "Baby Boomers", we would not have any of these problems.

That's right, you parents and grandparents from 1960 to 1990 let your children misbehave in church (and you know exactly who you are), let your children mouth off to other adults and to teachers (and you know exactly who you are), and are afraid to discipline.

The principal would not have this problem to deal with if you parents raised your children half-way decent (and you know exactly who you are).

Thank you Mrs. Corty.

October 28, 2009 8:08 PM  
Anonymous candy corty said...

At least I'm not hiding behind anonymity. I could have listed it as such but decided to stand up for my thoughts. I must say I'm grateful for those of you who care about whether I'm taking proper care of my child or not. Just because this is one of my views it does not mean I am lax in properly caring for my child's educational needs. As for my grammar it was spell checked and proof read before it was posted. I find that remark pretty petty. Those of you who know me, teachers included know I care very much about all my children's education. This has nothing to do with discipline. There are things my kids are not allowed to wear or do. So they do not do or wear them. Every parent has the right to raise there child as they see fit. I read the article and had a strong response I felt the need to voice. I have spoken with Mr. Grimes and believe he is a good man. We spoke for over an hour and I enjoyed his point of view as well as his willingness to listen to any concerns I had. I do care greatly for academics in the school system. I did mention better music and arts programs. Yes these are academics! Taking them out of schools has done nothing but ruin them. I do not see the school as a daycare system. That remark was just rude. I think maybe some parents do but I am not one of them. I also do not see my children as "DOLLS" that is ridiculous. If some hair color and when she is older a belly button ring is her way to express herself then I feel I am lucky compared to how some children prefer to act out and "express" themselves with drugs and drinking or worse. For the record my child is not perfect but is not on drugs or drinking. She has subjects in school she excels at and others she works hard to get good grades in. Bottom line is I have voiced my opinion and will continue to do so. We are our children's advocates and should stand up for there rights in every way, not just when it comes to academics. AS for the after school activities remark, I whole heartedly agree we need more. But we need more parental help to get them going and keep them going. I know the school would love to hear from parents wanting these programs and what they think will help to get them started. I was on the policy book committee last year and some of those rules Mr. Grimes mentioned were not in the book. That is one of the big reasons it bothered me to hear he had made these rules on his own. I simply wish parents would voice there opinions about these things as well as academics and discipline consequences for bullies and religious freedom in school. How would you feel if you went to work and while you were eating lunch a group of people came over to you and informed you you were going to burn in hell for reading a book? This is not something I want my kids to be worried about daily. I hope no matter what my retort was eye opening and thought provoking enough to get more parents involved. Thank you and sorry if my grammar somehow takes away from my point.

October 28, 2009 8:36 PM  
Anonymous Candy corty said...

It appears the section I wrote on what needs fixed more urgently didn't make it into this copy. I added my thoughts on what needed fixed ahead of dress codes and that version I hope will be in the delta wind tomorrow. More gym classes, better arts and music programs. A class teaching kids to learn the Russian language. This would not only benefit the kids but the whole community. Taken as an elective this would greatly benefit our community when these kids graduate. It's the second most spoken language here in Delta. It just makes good sense to add it to the curriculum. Fix these things first. I kindly ask any further remarks be directed to me directly. My children are not heathens running loose causing chaos or breaking the law. They are and I believe will continue to be wonderful and responsible people with bright futures who clearly know the difference between right and wrong. I also want them to know they have every right to question any rule or law as to it's true purpose. Which is what our four fathers also wanted us to do. Just because you question authority does not make you a unlawful person.

October 28, 2009 9:08 PM  
Anonymous candy corty said...

you and others may want to ignore this reality because quite honestly to acknowledge it would only be an indictment of your ill fated attempt to parent. There are bigger battles to wage for the welfare and safety of our children and I am certain that one of them is not defending their "right" to have any hair color they choose. You are accomplishing nothing by defending something as meaningless and unimportant as your child's hair color. Come on WAKE UP, the problem is bigger than you are willing to admit and probably if the truth be told you may be counted among the many "friendly" parents that not only ignore the real issues, but even encourage the behaviors that many times are both illegal and damaging to you son and/or daughters. You do this in an attempt to validate your own self-worth by being their friend. It doesn't make you cool. Quite the opposite is true.

Anonymous, How dare you assume me or any other parent who has an interest to protect our child's rights to freedom of expression are encouraging them to get involved in illegal activities. I ignore nothing when it comes to my children. Nor do I use them to validate my self-worth. I also don't feel cool for what I do or do not allow my child to do. I am there mother first and foremost. I have also stood up for my child who was being unfairly treated by a teacher. This was not an isolated incident and I have found We were not the first parents to complain about this teachers abrasive and crude treatment of some students. We are not the last ones either. Even after making 3 formal complaints she is still teaching and still treating certain students less kindly then others to put a more polite spin on it. Just because you see this one side of what I'm willing to stand up for do not assume it is all I care about.

October 28, 2009 11:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms. Corty:

I don't hide in anonymity for simple reasons like cowardice. I hide behind anonymity because irrational people abound and we must protect our families. In our society today often the speaker or writer is not the condemned, but rather their children are targeted and ridiculed. So, I remain anonymous to protect them not myself.

Questioning authority is perfectly fine, but should be done so in a respectful and judicious manner. I believe that the rules that you somehow think have been added have really been in the DHS student handbook for years. These rules were just not effectively administered or monitored by previous principals. This is not an indictment of previous administrations, but sometimes people become complacent in their professional duties or emphasize other areas.

Spell check and grammar check are tools, but not better than proof reading by a human.

October 29, 2009 6:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I applaude Mr. Grimes, even if some "parents" don't get the fact that sometimes there are rules for a reason, even if they can't quite wrap their minds around it a the time, becaue they want their kids to be able to be themselves? Seriously, is the code to kids appearance the only thing to worry about? I would rather worry about my childrens education and safety, (can't have wierdo's hanging around them) then the dress code. woorry about who they are hanging out with, whose homes they are going to, and what they are doing rather than complaining cause their underwear don't hang out because their pants are around their knees!
Susan a Parent who really cares.

October 29, 2009 7:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's forefathers, not four fathers, spell check on the computer isn't always right.

October 29, 2009 8:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ms. Corty:

Please conduct a little research into the constitutional rights of students, in particular, as they relate to freedom of speech and expression. The following Supreme Court cases have all found to a varying degree that schools can limit free speech and expression.

Tinker v. DesMoines (1969) - "substantial disruption"

Bethel School District No. 403 v. Fraser (1986) -
"administrators ought to have discretion to limit student freedom of expression that interferes with the legitimate educational and disciplinary objectives of a school"

"constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings"

"First Amendment rights are circumscribed... in light of the special characteristics of the school environment"

Veronica School District 47J v. Acton (1995) -
"while children assuredly do not shed their constitutional rights... at the schoolhouse gate... the nature of those rights is what is appropriate for children in school"

As you maybe aware the Constitution of the United States is a document that is interpreted by the courts and thus this review based on case study provides for a living document that can't necessarily be taken literally. That is the wonderous foresight of the framers of the constitution had in creating a document that could be adapted to the here and now.

October 29, 2009 8:18 AM  
Anonymous Candy corty said...

I see no matter what I write I am going to be verbally attacked. I voiced my opinion about a view of the things that bother me and not one of you had a single comment about anything except the dress code remarks I made. Don't any of you get it? I believe it's the writer being judged here and not necessarily the content. I also have issues with teachers who clearly dislike children teaching our kids, With bullies left to be who they are, with limited elective classes and much more. Yet all of that has been ignored. Must be more fun to unleash personal feelings about grammar. Has anyone ever told you how rude it is to correct someone's grammar in the manner you did? Even if your correct it was rude. My point is the dress code was not and is not the only thing I find wrong with the school right now. I just appear to be the only one willing to publicly voice my opinions. I was really hoping to hear more remarks about the other issues as well. I Have read the rule book by the way. I was there when it was written. He has added a few things that were not in there and he will tell you so himself and why he did. I'm curious anybody have thoughts on kids being told there going to burn in hell for reading a book or for wearing a band t-shirt? How about for the kids who are bullied daily with little hope that the bully will ever be sufficiently punished to a point they actually stop. I guess those subjects don't merit a response. Best of luck to everyone. I have read all your remarks and respect your points of view as we all have the right to our own.

October 29, 2009 12:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see when confronted with real substantiation for why you are off base you attempt to redirect the discussion. Not surprising, but have you ever thought that maybe there is a lack of some addtitional extracurriculuar classes and other ammenities in this school district because no one is willing to pay for it. Funds are limited and with no local money to provide additional funding it is near impossible to get more than you have right now.

October 29, 2009 2:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually I haven't had a problem with bullies, in fact when one of my kids had a difference of opinion with another kids, they were both disciplined, and yes it was mine who was trying to bully, so the school does do something about it. I've had to go get one of my kids multiple times. At the same time, when one of my kids was being bullied, I told them that A) They've got to learn to stand up for themselves at some point in time. B)We can go have a talk with the parents face to face to. C) Home school if you really feel your kids are threatened and nothings been done to put an end to it or to your satisfaction.

October 29, 2009 3:44 PM  
Anonymous Candy corty said...

I honestly do not think Im trying to redirect or change the subject. I have said why I am apposed to some of these dress code "rules". I also do not feel Im off base. I may not be in the majority but Im ok with that. Just as some of you have expressed a feeling of how little a thing such as a dress code is to complain about just as many of you are very passionate about defending the rules that are not suppose to be a big deal. If it's not a big deal to you then why be so upset about my opinions. It's sad how many of you are advocating if you don't like it you should home school. I do not hate our school system. I simply disagree and question specific issues I have. As for the bully remark. All those things are great. All those things were done. It did nothing to stop the child from being a bully. I was bullied and have given my kids the talk and recommended things to say and do. I find it disturbing that the end all solution seems to be just home school them. Why should the school have to change anything for any of us? I would still love it if we could find a certified Russian language teacher for the school. There are many teachers I enjoy speaking and working with. I have no trouble bringing any of my concerns to the middle or elementary school principals. Please know that even though I have issues with some things does not mean I feel the whole school system is broken.

October 29, 2009 4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mrs. Corty, I do see you are very passionate about the school district not asking the Rules Committee their opinion on this change Mr. Grimes made.

I believe he did it for that fact that distractions are the #2 reason that children are not learning in this day and age.

#1 reason, of course, are parents who do not love their children enough to tell them "NO". They would rather give in to their children's whining than say just say "NO".

I love watching parents and children interact in public because it answers every item discussed here in one simple sentence.

"It's the parents' fault, not the school's!"

October 29, 2009 10:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that the problem have with the opinion that the dress code shouldn't matter, is that most parents don't want their kids exposed to the wrong people. I know I don't want my daughters to hang out with boys that don't know how to get pants that actually fit, or girls that run around in skirts that they can't bend over in at -40, and a wanna-be top that really doesn't cover anything, aand enough make-up for four people, all at the tender age of 13 what does that say about the parents? I know to me it speaks volumes about how much that they can't be bothered with their kids, and teaching some sort of common sense.

October 30, 2009 8:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Parents too must take responsibility for many of the problems we see in our schools (and elsewhere) today.

Many become so wrapped up in their own pleasures and pursuits that they pay little attention to what is happening to their children.

Instead they take the path of least resistance -- which is to let them do whatever they want to do. But this is a recipe for disaster.

October 30, 2009 8:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, it is within your rights to question rules or changes to rules. But, there must still be a level of respect to those in authority of your children. After reading your letters I have figured out that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

October 31, 2009 10:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Get a copy of previous student handbooks and compare to the current handbook. Then you will find that "nothing" of substance has really changed. I have seen firsthand the disrespect some students dish out when asked simply to get to class on time. Regrettably, if this same amount of disrespect was directed toward a parent rather than a school employee many of these children would find their way to the woodshed or get a quick one across the face. So, the patience that many school personnel exhibit is admirable.

October 31, 2009 12:59 PM  
Anonymous candy corty said...

Yes, it is within your rights to question rules or changes to rules. But, there must still be a level of respect to those in authority of your children. After reading your letters I have figured out that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

I'm gonna take the whole apple comment as a compliment. Respect is taught in my house. Respect for teachers is also taught. However respect is a two way street. It is earned not given. It is tough to explain to a child that even if a teacher clearly has no respect for you that you should be the better person and still offer them respect. Nobody is perfect and that includes parents, teachers & Kids. I would also like to thank all the parent who have walked up to me and thanked me for writing what they also feel needed to be said. I would be ok with people who don't agree talking to me as well. Just because we may not agree does not mean we can not talk in a civilized manner about our differences of opinion.

October 31, 2009 8:08 PM  

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